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Offline Lancelot

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Is Blair the worst PM so far?
« on: Mar 22, 2008, 21:59 »
A question from todays Toronto Star, "Is Bush the worst President ever?" Comments please.

You could also go a bit further and say is Blair the worst P.M so far.  Brown is trying hard to beat him for that role.

This country is fast dashing down hill since the above two came to power. We will soon be a third world country.

One good point is that the people of this country are at last waking up to the fact that under Labour the country is worse off. Take a look at the polls.

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neo

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Re: Is Blair the worst PM so far?
« Reply #1 on: Mar 24, 2008, 19:44 »
You can't place blame on individuals for a failing system. I blame Thatcherism from 1979 onwards for the decline of the country, and I blame Al-Qaeda for forcing America's hand. No-one disagreed with bombing the s***e out of Afghanistan in October 2001...

Blair was put under an unprecedented media microscope and scrutinised like no other PM since day one to change the country after decades of suicidal mismanagment, and now everyone blames him because they saw on BBC One that his policies were flawed.

Throught the media eye, all policies are flawed, of course they are. No plan is perfect. The media makes everything looks askew and complicated - but they still oversimplify what they can and thus make us think we're well informed when in fact we're being spoon-fed crap.

Blair could not fix a broken country while dealing with own administration's unique problems in the space of ten years when breaking the country took a back-breaking twenty years or so.

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Offline Lancelot

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Re: Is Blair the worst PM so far?
« Reply #2 on: Mar 24, 2008, 22:24 »

Blair could not fix a broken country while dealing with own administration's unique problems in the space of ten years when breaking the country took a back-breaking twenty years or so.

Surely Blair took over a booming country and reduced it in all the years that he was in power to the current mess that we are in.
He poured billions into a health service that now has even more administrators and less doctors and nurses. It is a shambles.

We have a non effective police force where more time is spent doing paperwork than policing.

They are releasing prisoners early because in all of the years that they have been in power they have failed to tackle the problem of too few cells. They have had long enough to sort it out, but haven't.

I suppose that it all depends on what colour glasses you are wearing but the tide has turned against the Labour party as all of the polls are now showing. Is everyone wrong?

The country, and the people are more in debt now than they have been for half a century.  Is that progress?


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Lancelot

Offline SouthernExPat

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Re: Is Blair the worst PM so far?
« Reply #3 on: Mar 24, 2008, 22:30 »
No government should be allowed to stay in power for more than 2 terms (imho)
I hope Labour get kicked out at the next election....But 8 yrs after that... I will vote for them again!

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Klendathu

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Re: Is Blair the worst PM so far?
« Reply #4 on: Mar 25, 2008, 14:43 »
Said it before and I will say it again, it does not matter who you vote for the government will always win.  NO government will be 100% successful for 100% of the population and that is a fact.    As for blaming individuals; Bush, Blair and Brown, et al, as all those before them are mere figure heads.  They no more run their countries than I fart monkeys!  They are merely a face for the ruling political party and nothing more.  They can not be held wholly and individually responsible for running the country IMHO.

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neo

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Re: Is Blair the worst PM so far?
« Reply #5 on: Mar 25, 2008, 20:24 »
Surely Blair took over a booming country and reduced it in all the years that he was in power to the current mess that we are in.
He poured billions into a health service that now has even more administrators and less doctors and nurses. It is a shambles.

We have a non effective police force where more time is spent doing paperwork than policing.

They are releasing prisoners early because in all of the years that they have been in power they have failed to tackle the problem of too few cells. They have had long enough to sort it out, but haven't.

I suppose that it all depends on what colour glasses you are wearing but the tide has turned against the Labour party as all of the polls are now showing. Is everyone wrong?

The country, and the people are more in debt now than they have been for half a century.  Is that progress?


We have a deregulated economy thanks to Thatcherist policies of lassez faire capitalism. Thus, it is not the fault of the Blair government or New Labour that we are in a debt crisis and a looming recession - this crisis occured because the cost of living has risen thanks to deregulated, independent companies such as Gas, Electricity and Water companies raising prices, as well as the rise of credit which allows those in lower wrungs of society to compete where before they would be left behind

The new poor have flat screen TVs, fitted kitchens and PS3s, thanks to credit availability. Unfortunately, this means that actual money has been taken out of the loop a great deal of the time, hence the rise in inflation. The NHS is in such a shambles because of the lack of co-ordination, leadership and funds - again, thanks to the degregulated economy vs the creation of the "internal market" in the 1980s. Fixing the monolithic NHS would require such a huge overhaul that most people - including yourself no doubt - would scoff at the cost as a waste of money.

As for the police, blame a clash of continuity and change which has forced an overburdoned institution at the heart of social order - in a changing, shifting, dynamic social world - to change at the pace of that world. Another problem is that while all this "modernisation" is going on, there's a powerful rhetoric of "hang 'em and whip 'em" which seeks to criminalise and punish those who fail to abide by "society's rules" - a fatal miscalculation when society is so fluid and changeable in the 21st Century.

New Labour wanted a change in government - they'll promise the earth to get it. Be thankful they made the push to get the Tories out, even if the results are less than satisfactory.

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Offline Lancelot

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Re: Is Blair the worst PM so far?
« Reply #6 on: Mar 25, 2008, 22:02 »
Now what was it I said about it depending on what coloured specs you are wearing?   

You say “this crisis occurred because the cost of living has risen thanks to deregulated, independent companies such as Gas, Electricity and Water companies raising prices”
How were they independent when it was the Government who controlled them?

When the Government ran these utilities they were able to set whatever prices they wanted. I’d say that prices have risen because of other, world, factors. We now have companies fighting for the business to supply those utilities and this helps to keep the cost competitive.

You say “The new poor have flat screen TVs, fitted kitchens and PS3s, thanks to credit availability.”  Would you deny these people the pleasures of life?  Maybe you would like to keep the peasants down.

“The NHS is in such a shambles because of the lack of co-ordination, leadership and FUNDS” 

Shortage of funds!  How can you say that?  Labour promised to sort out the health service but they’ve made a mess of it in spite of pouring billions of extra pounds into it.

“there's a powerful rhetoric of "hang 'em and whip 'em" which seeks to criminalise and punish those who fail to abide by "society's rules"

Maybe that would not be a bad idea as everything else, including the lenient sentences now being given out have not worked. I’d give them one chance and if they offend again I’d meter out a very harsh punishment. A personal experience of that was a very distant relative on my wife's side.  If he wanted a pair of jeans he went into a shop and took them.  He was give a condition dishcharge, he was given probation, as it was called then. He was given Community Service. He was given a suspended sentence and yet he still offended 'till the day that he was given three months imprisonment. He has never offended since and is now a hard working young man. His comments are that if he had been "send down" the first time he not have continued to offend.

“New Labour wanted a change in government - they'll promise the earth to get it. Be thankful they made the push to get the Tories out, even if the results are less than satisfactory.”

An understatement, “less than satisfactory”, after almost three terms in office. We have now moved to a shambles of a country under Labour.

People will, hopefully, be the judge.


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neo

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Re: Is Blair the worst PM so far?
« Reply #7 on: Mar 29, 2008, 12:29 »
Now what was it I said about it depending on what coloured specs you are wearing?   

You say “this crisis occurred because the cost of living has risen thanks to deregulated, independent companies such as Gas, Electricity and Water companies raising prices”
How were they independent when it was the Government who controlled them?

When the Government ran these utilities they were able to set whatever prices they wanted. I’d say that prices have risen because of other, world, factors. We now have companies fighting for the business to supply those utilities and this helps to keep the cost competitive.

You say “The new poor have flat screen TVs, fitted kitchens and PS3s, thanks to credit availability.”  Would you deny these people the pleasures of life?  Maybe you would like to keep the peasants down.

“The NHS is in such a shambles because of the lack of co-ordination, leadership and FUNDS” 

Shortage of funds!  How can you say that?  Labour promised to sort out the health service but they’ve made a mess of it in spite of pouring billions of extra pounds into it.

“there's a powerful rhetoric of "hang 'em and whip 'em" which seeks to criminalise and punish those who fail to abide by "society's rules"

Maybe that would not be a bad idea as everything else, including the lenient sentences now being given out have not worked. I’d give them one chance and if they offend again I’d meter out a very harsh punishment. A personal experience of that was a very distant relative on my wife's side.  If he wanted a pair of jeans he went into a shop and took them.  He was give a condition dishcharge, he was given probation, as it was called then. He was given Community Service. He was given a suspended sentence and yet he still offended 'till the day that he was given three months imprisonment. He has never offended since and is now a hard working young man. His comments are that if he had been "send down" the first time he not have continued to offend.

“New Labour wanted a change in government - they'll promise the earth to get it. Be thankful they made the push to get the Tories out, even if the results are less than satisfactory.”

An understatement, “less than satisfactory”, after almost three terms in office. We have now moved to a shambles of a country under Labour.

People will, hopefully, be the judge.


Utilities are not cheapened by competition because they are not an optional commodity - companies always up their prices together because they can. It's more a price-rise competition than a price-drop competition. They argue that they are cheapest but they all, always up their prices without warning.

Thatcher privatizied the utlilites, remember?

I love how people take out of context someone's argument and twist it back on you. About the new poor, I was simply pointing out that the poor have access to these funds because companies are allowing it - and overall, this is the reason for the credit crisis - I'm part of that new poor, I know how credit can become a necessity.

As for the NHS, it's where the money is spent, not how much the government gives it - and again, the NHS is more and more deregulated, basically leaving the flawed system to it's own devices by throwing money at it.

Politics is not about loving, caring politicians putting out the will of the people like some hippy socialistic idyl. It's about politicians trying to get their own way - the House of Commons is no more democratic in this sense than the House of Lords. It's reality - it might not be good but that's it. Labour wanted the Tories out before they did any more damage, knowing the people would rather vote for a haphazard Labour government than commit democratic suicide and vote Tory again.

Re-read my post, the one you replied to in the first place, in context, not just skim through for bits you don't agree with. And if there is anything you don't understand, just put your hand up and ask, okay?  :wink:

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Offline Lancelot

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Re: Is Blair the worst PM so far?
« Reply #8 on: Mar 29, 2008, 15:42 »
Great, so according to you I'm better off under Labour?  Me thinks that my mind must be befuddled. Do the rest of our friends on this site agree with you?   :)

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Klendathu

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Re: Is Blair the worst PM so far?
« Reply #9 on: Mar 29, 2008, 17:09 »
As for the NHS, it's where the money is spent, not how much the government gives it - and again, the NHS is more and more deregulated, basically leaving the flawed system to it's own devices by throwing money at it.

I want to hear more about this.

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neo

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Re: Is Blair the worst PM so far?
« Reply #10 on: Mar 30, 2008, 12:33 »
Great, so according to you I'm better off under Labour?  Me thinks that my mind must be befuddled. Do the rest of our friends on this site agree with you?   :)

I didn't say that - and it's not that simple. We've got Labour, which is better than the Tories, but that's not to say we're all actually better off. It's a complex little quandry.

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neo

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Re: Is Blair the worst PM so far?
« Reply #11 on: Mar 30, 2008, 12:41 »
I want to hear more about this.

It al began with the Winter of Discontent in 1979. The system was failing under the burdon of the welfare state and thus, Thatcher was elected. Her policies required immediate action to basically deconstruct and reconstruct the welfare state - dismantle it altogether if possible. Part of that was a broader plan for national health - merging NHS and private sectors and creating the internal market to "ensure a more productive system," the idea was that market forces would take over and the NHS would become excellent because of the capitalist aspirations of those in positions of fund-holding and power in the NHS. Problem? Cost-cutting, confusion and the usual problems with the market place, namely vast inequalities which emerged on the whole. So the system was not quite working, and the NHS ended up demoralized, underfunded and disorganised - and in debt.
Labour comes to power, throws money at it but the money doesn't go anywhere useful thanks to the surounding issues which have basically f****d the system up at a grassroots level.

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