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Author Topic: PCSO Can of Worms/Tragic Incident  (Read 1916 times)

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Klendathu

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PCSO Can of Worms/Tragic Incident
« on: Sep 24, 2007, 15:35 »
Anyone got any thoughts they want to share on this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7010703.stm

Is it right to use such a tragic incident as a catalyst for political discussions about the usefullness of PCSO's?

I can't speak personally for those involved, but I would have thought that most people would have dived on in?

What are you views?




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Offline SouthernExPat

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Re: PCSO Can of Worms/Tragic Incident
« Reply #1 on: Sep 24, 2007, 16:00 »
It really is a tough one this, and of course an immotive issue!... Should they have jumped in?... Yes, I think they should have!
Half the problem is, that they arent professional coppers, and I feel that PCSO's (although they try their best, and they joined for all the right reasons) have been given a uniform and thrust out on the beat, with little or no proper training, just so this Labour Government can say "Hey...you wanted more Police on the streets?..here they are"
Roughly translated, its another sneaky Labour trick!!..To fool us into thinking that everything is "Better under Labour"
But it's not is it?

They are just as bad as the Tories ...just the bloody same!! :twisted:

What we need is More trained, professional Police Officers on the beat!...and use the PCSO's to do the paperwork that ties up a Police Officer for 1/3 of his/her shift!!

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Klendathu

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Re: PCSO Can of Worms/Tragic Incident
« Reply #2 on: Sep 24, 2007, 16:05 »
I agree, it is a tough one.  Regardless of the politics involved, my approach would be;

On one hand, you can argue that they were perfectly in their rights and acted responsibly for NOT jumping in, especially as it would seem that the boy was already under water on their arrival.  It would not surprise me if police procedure actually stated that in instances such as this, that they SHOULD NOT wade in. (Based on the "they too could be a casualty" argument).

However, on the other hand, it is also a case of human nature too.  Surely any adult would have piled on in there regardless of the risk to themselves in order to attempt a rescue?  I know that I would have, and indeed have done, when I found myself in such a situation in the past.

IMHO, I think that those involved will regret not attempting a full-on rescue.  It will be a moment that will stay with them for the rest of their lives.

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Offline SouthernExPat

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Re: PCSO Can of Worms/Tragic Incident
« Reply #3 on: Sep 24, 2007, 16:34 »

IMHO, I think that those involved will regret not attempting a full-on rescue.  It will be a moment that will stay with them for the rest of their lives.

Sadly, I think you will be proven correct :(

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Offline flooky

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Re: PCSO Can of Worms/Tragic Incident
« Reply #4 on: Sep 24, 2007, 16:56 »
It would not surprise me if police procedure actually stated that in instances such as this, that they SHOULD NOT wade in

I remember watching something recently about the motorway car police who came across a similar situation.
According to their procedures they had to access the situation and call in the fire brigade as they do not receive training to rescue people like this.
Even the bloke up for an award with the Fire Brigade for saving a woman had to ask his superior officer twice before getting permission to have a rope tied to him and attempt to save a woman in a river.

One thing that does not appear to have been asked or found out by the press or anyone though is the important one of "could the PSCO's swim?"

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Klendathu

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Re: PCSO Can of Worms/Tragic Incident
« Reply #5 on: Sep 24, 2007, 18:49 »
I guess the question that I am asking, and the thing that I am wondering is which are you first, are you a policeman/PCSO/Social Worker, etc or a human being?  To be sure all professionals should follow procedure, but surely the desire to save, or even attempt to save a drowning child would overcome this?

Admittedly if they could not swim and the water was too deep for them to wade in, then your could argue they did the right thing. 

I quote from another article: (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7009251.stm)

"Two anglers waded in and pulled Bethany to safety using their rods but Jordon became submerged and disappeared."

However, assuming they  could swim, then what?  How much training do you need?  Given the fact that they may not have received training on saving lives in water, what prevented them from ATTEMPTING?  I am more interested in that answer?

Also, to be clear, I am not criticizing the individuals concerned, they made their decision and it has been validated and supported by their superiors.

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Offline Victoria Sponge

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Re: PCSO Can of Worms/Tragic Incident
« Reply #6 on: Sep 25, 2007, 08:27 »
I saw a bit on the news about this - they said that by the time the PCSO arrived, the child was submerged in a lake the size of a football pitch where no-one had any idea where the child was last seen, and no sign on the water surface as to where the child was.

Sorry but it didn't appear that they had watched him die - they simply arrived after the child had gone under. They just didn't see it at all, and the child had already gone before they arrived.



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Offline flooky

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Re: PCSO Can of Worms/Tragic Incident
« Reply #7 on: Sep 25, 2007, 08:52 »
I guess the question that I am asking, and the thing that I am wondering is which are you first, are you a policeman/PCSO/Social Worker, etc or a human being?  To be sure all professionals should follow procedure, but surely the desire to save, or even attempt to save a drowning child would overcome this

The difference between members of the public and Police, Fire Brigade etc is that these people are traind to think first before acting. They have to think about the consequences of what danger they could be putting their colleagues in by them having to then rescue them if they got into trouble. When arriving at a scene like this they dont know what is under the water, old cars, bikes, shopping trolleys etc, that could trap anyone trying to attempt a rescue.

Only the officers concerned and their seniors know why they acted in the way they did and I am not trying to defend their actions or not but we have to look at all sides before jumping to conclusions.

The only lesson people should get from this is to be aware of the dangers of unknown water and to know where our kids are and what they are doing.

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D-Fens

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Re: PCSO Can of Worms/Tragic Incident
« Reply #8 on: Sep 25, 2007, 10:53 »
I saw a bit on the news about this - they said that by the time the PCSO arrived, the child was submerged in a lake the size of a football pitch where no-one had any idea where the child was last seen, and no sign on the water surface as to where the child was.

Sorry but it didn't appear that they had watched him die - they simply arrived after the child had gone under. They just didn't see it at all, and the child had already gone before they arrived.


I'm with you on this one.  Where would anyone start to look, even a police officer for that matter?

The whole thing has been twisted and then used as a vehicle by politicians to spin public opinion against the need for PCSO's.

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incredabuz

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Re: PCSO Can of Worms/Tragic Incident
« Reply #9 on: Sep 25, 2007, 11:35 »
i have read all your replies and agree with everything said
but just to through another worm in

WHERE  WERE THE PARENTS
the kids should not have been around water unsupervised in this day and age!!

(hypocrite)(i used to go of all day and play by the pond)

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Offline SouthernExPat

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Re: PCSO Can of Worms/Tragic Incident
« Reply #10 on: Sep 25, 2007, 12:37 »
i have read all your replies and agree with everything said
but just to through another worm in

WHERE  WERE THE PARENTS
the kids should not have been around water unsupervised in this day and age!!

(hypocrite)(i used to go of all day and play by the pond)

That is actually a very valid point!!

A 10 yr old boy, and his little sister should not be playing around near a lake unsupervised in the first place.
I am an Angler, and 20 yrs ago, I lost a good friend, who drowned in a lake whilst we were both fishing.
He had been baiting up in a boat, behind an Island, and had capsized.

He was a good swimmer, but the water was deep, and very cold...he got cramp apparently, and just drowned there and then.

Lakes and Ponds are a dangerous place for kids to be without adults watching them.(indeed equally dangerous for adults too!)
The fact that this little lad had gone in to save his sister, and himself drowned...is probably testament to why the Officers didnt jump in...and as he had already submerged...He may well have been dead before they arrived!

A truly tragic tale...and should serve as a warning to us parents! :(

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